Comments on: Why I don’t understand libertarians

By: Lawrence Samuels

Lawrence Samuels — Sat, 06 Sep 2003 05:12:49 +0000

It’s a pleasure to spar with you, Barry. I love discussions. It sharpens the minds. Now let’s talk about coercion. You are correct. Coercion also means threats, usually the type that indicates possible physical aggression. So I erred on that one. But libertarians do use the term aggression or the threat of aggression as inappropriate behavior. And yes some criminal industrialists did use force against strikers who had every right under “Freedom of Association” to organize. And, of course, government police/troops mowed down strikers. The number of people hurt during this time was relatively small compared to the hundreds of millions mowed down by governmental action –political persecution, torture, genocide and war. However, I have experienced threats by labor union members as a student and at other times. So far, I have had no trouble with companies. By the way, do you own a business that has employees? Do they have a union? Just wondering. I’m a realtor days and a writer at night.
As for regulations, I take the ACLU approach (I�ve worked with them in Monterey) concerning free speech. They go after the smallest infraction of the First Amendment since they understand “government-creep” well. They know that once the government gets a toehold, they will continue to push the envelope. Government is like a cancer without a cure. Regulations are the same. The first one might sound fine, but then it goes way beyond the pale. Study some of the regulations. You will discover that most regulations are pushed by industries. They are either trying to hurt competitors or gouge the public. Take the laws against giving away dairy products in California. I have researched it. In fact, my sister’s company ran afoul of it. The price support law states that it is illegal to give away any dairy product to charity or sell it below cost. Thousands of gallons of milk are dumped annually because the dairies often produce too much milk in the summer. Who created these laws? The milk industry created them back in the 1940s. There are thousands of insane laws like these.
And as for individual liberty and the rich, remember this: the wealthy have little need for freedom, they can buy it! The poor have a greater need for freedom; they cannot afford it at rich man�s prices. Liberty for all.

By: Barry Parr

Barry Parr — Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:46:08 +0000

To coerce there must be “physical force.” Check your pocket dictionary.
Try the American Heritage dictionary, or the OED, or the Merriam Webster’s Collegiate. From dictionary.com:

1. To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel.
2. To dominate, restrain, or control forcibly: coerced the strikers into compliance. See Synonyms at force .

The example in the second definition is especially apt. Early in the twentieth century, companies hired other companies to kill strikers. Or, sometimes, they got the government to do it for them. Eventually they learned that the threat of depriving them of their livelihood was enough to nip most organizing efforts in the bud–especially once the law made most jobs reasonably safe and minimally compensated.
“Pressure, threats and intimidation” sounds like a (Microsoft/AOL/WalMart/Clear Channel/pre-Teddy Roosevelt Standard Oil/pre-Judge Green AT&T) business plan. Or the name of the RIAA’s law firm.
Under the system you describe, a person’s degree of liberty would be in direct proportion to the amount of money they had. I would be willing to accept a little regulatory friction in the market to achieve greater human liberty. What surprises me is that more libertarians aren’t.

By: Lawrence Samuels

Lawrence Samuels — Fri, 05 Sep 2003 07:47:07 +0000

To coerce there must be “physical force.” Check your pocket dictionary. Companies in a free society do not coerce. Some might intimidate (the bad ones), but rarely is anyone physically assaulted. However, if you look at the history of the State in order to discover how many people died directly or indirectly due to government during the 20th Century, the estimates are approx. 1/4 billion human lives. Companies, especially those in the medical industry, have saved millions of lives through newly-created medicines and modern medical equipment. There is no comparison. Government kills, businesses save lives. Even Michael Douglas in the movie �Wall Street,� where he played the evil archetypal businessman, committed the crime of �lying� to his business partner. Nobody was killed; no tanks smashing into buildings, no massive firefights, and no bombing of innocent people in foreign countries. And yet politicians lie everyday and nobody seems to care. Libertarians merely seek to have an aggression-free society where everybody has “free choice” and �consent.� However, you cannot have such liberty co-existing with coercive government, at least not for long. If you want a civilized society, it needs to be a voluntary society. And yes, in a free society, anybody can have any type of financial system they want — Communism, National Socialism (fascism), mixed economy or free-market capitalism — just as long as each person consents to it and has the personal authority (self-government) to “opt” out at any time. Liberty for all.

By: Barry Parr

Barry Parr — Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:40:01 +0000

Monopolies can charge more than competitive companies. I learned this in econ 101 from Michael Boskin, who was head of Reagan’s Council of Economic Advisors (not exactly a socialist).
The bigger problem is the coercive power of corporations. If your livelihood and your children’s healthcare depend on a corporation, you’re not exactly a free agent. If all your communications services and news come from government-sanctioned oligopolies, how free are you? If your entire downtown is moved into a big concrete box on the edge of town, what kind of market choice do you have?
I’m not saying that we should substitute government tyranny for corporate tyranny — only that we’re currently out of balance.

By: Daniel Taylor

Daniel Taylor — Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:24:45 +0000

“Take a look at the Constitution, the most important passages are all explicitly intended to reduce the power of the majority – the trading of liberty for equality.”
That’s ridiculous, because ultimate equality is socialism, and the founders were far more afraid of that than “too much freedom,” if there is such a thing.
One thing that anti-libertarians cannot get around is the fact that corporations do not force consumers to purchase their products. That is why I cannot understand all these people who complain that the corporations strongarm the consumers. Exactly how? By offering prices that are higher than they would be with more competition? Even in such an extreme scenario, the consumers spend ONLY as much money as they think it advantageous of them to. I.e., when the make the purchase, even as they whine about how high the prices are, still see it as advantageous and beneficial to them to purchase the products, else they would not have done it. That is the simple fact, even so-called “monopolies” must sell their products at a price where consumers are willing to buy them. This is not coercion. You can call it unfair, unjust, or even unethical, but to call it coercion is outright ridiculous. If a corporation were to monopolize the gum market and to sell gum at $30 a stick, would they get any business? No. Can any of you anti-libertarians tell me why?

By: Lawrence Samuels

Lawrence Samuels — Tue, 02 Sep 2003 06:54:20 +0000

One of the main roots of libertarianism was the Abolitionist movement. William Lloyd Garrison used the concept of “self-ownership” to attack slavery in the 1850′s. Libertarians use this same concept along with ideals from John Locke and Prof. Robert Nozick concerning personal consent of the individual. But the main point is that people own their own body. And if they own their own body, they own what they produce with it — which means that taxation can only be voluntary. Even the 13th Amendment (ending slavery) states that “involuntary servitude” is prohibited. Remember, Thomas Jefferson promised to rid the nation of all federal taxes if he were elected President. And he kept his promise. There were no federal taxes up to the Civil War. If you want an aggression-free society, it will have to be more in tune with the founders of this nation. Liberty for all.

By: Tasty Morsels

Tasty Morsels — Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:56:28 +0000

Libertarians

Why I don’t understand libertarians.

By: Barry Parr

Barry Parr — Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:10:21 +0000

I’m not sure that majority rule and liberty are the same thing. The Constitution limits the strict rule of the majority in order to protect the liberty of individual citizens. I also don’t think there is a conflict between liberty and equality before the law.
There can be a conflict between individual liberty and the common good. But that conflict is so dynamic that it’s unclear you can resolve it in a constituion. For the most part, we’ve done a pretty good job of striking that balance.

By: Filter Pad

Filter Pad — Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:07:54 +0000

http://2hrlunch.typepad.com/fltrpad/2003/08/a_most_interest.html

A most interesting dialogue taking place at MediaSavvy based on the statement (and subsequent entry) “Why I Don’t Understand Libertarians.” Go for the entry, stay for the comments. Link via Anil Dash.

By: Andy

Andy — Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:47:57 +0000

In almost all cases, liberty and equality are opposed to one another. Libertarianism is the farthest thing from the original goal of the founders of our republic. Take a look at the Constitution, the most important passages are all explicitly intended to reduce the power of the majority – the trading of liberty for equality.